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	<title>Comments for LCBO Bag Fiasco</title>
	<link>http://lcbobagfiasco.com</link>
	<description>...what else can the Liquor Control Board of Ontario get wrong?</description>
	<pubDate>Sun, 20 May 2012 23:35:04 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>Comment on Welcome to the LCBO Bag Fiasco Blog! by wizard</title>
		<link>http://lcbobagfiasco.com/2008/08/01/blog/#comment-3</link>
		<author>wizard</author>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Sep 2008 18:03:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://lcbobagfiasco.com/2008/08/01/blog/#comment-3</guid>
		<description>Please see my comments below your numbered points:

1. In a National Post article, dated May 28, 2008, Canadian Plastics Industry Association (CPIA) president, Serge Lavoie, is quoted as saying, "Paper bags are a far worse user of natural resources and emit far more greenhouse gases at the end of their life cycle than plastic." A 2004 study comparing paper with plastic bags found the manufacture of paper bags takes 2.2 times more non-renewable energy than plastic shopping bags, 4.7 times more water and emits 3.1 times more greenhouse gases.

This is a quote from the president of a plastics association. Of course he will be spinning his side to look good. I wouldn't quote someone who's obviously biased. How about finding a quote from an unbiased 3rd party to support your argument? 
Also, how about providing a link to that "2004 study" so that we can read it and see for ourselves how sound it is?


   3. The LCBO contends that 80 million of their standard plastic bags end up in landfills. Their numbers are based on the number of bags they provide to customers. But because the standard plastic bags are so sturdy and suitable for so many purposes, they are not ending up in landfills, because they are being reused for other purposes… storage, returning empty bottles to the Beer Store for refunds, carrying a wide variety of items from one location to another, etc. Hence the 80M figure is grossly exaggerating the landfill issue.

Look at it this way, people may be reusing their bags, but there is no plastic bag recycling system in Toronto. Therefore, no matter how many times you reuse your bag, unless you are hanging onto it forever, eventually it ends up in a landfill. Thus, if they are giving out 80 million bags, then eventually 80 million bags end up in a landfill, unless people hoard them in their houses forever. It really is that simple. The bags they give out can't just disappear.

  5. The LCBO tried convincing their customers to buy reusable canvas bags before, under the assumption that their customers were concerned with environmental issues.  It was a colossal failure to say the least! Customers did not want to have to carry empty bags back to the store.

Many customers are bringing reusable bags back to the store. Have you been to the grocery store lately? I see many people bringing their reusable bags there. Probably this wasn't a success in the past b/c people weren't given a strong enough message that it's important to save the environment through these small but easy changes in the past. Now that most stores are encouraging this option, more and more people are doing it. 
Myself, I always travel with a backpack when I know I will be shopping. Environmental concerns aside, I'd rather carry something on my back instead of clutching plastic bags in my hands!

  6.  Consider the scenario of buying four bottles of wine.  In the past the LCBO staff would have probably used two plastic bags which you can conveniently take home, whether you have driven, taken public transportation or even walked. Now, you'd get two paper bags which you'd have to hold clutched to your chest.  That might be OK if your car isn't far away, but what about those people who are walking a few blocks or taking a bus or street car. The walkers will be experiencing a lot of physical strain, and those on public transit would likely be taking up another seat for the bags, since it would not be advisable to put them on the floor as you could with the durable standard plastic bags. 

See my point above about the backpack. Also, paper bags do not have to be flimsy. Just yesterday I purchased a large bag of soil from a garden centre, and they gave me a large paper bag with a strong paper handle, and I carried that sucker for about a 10 min walk, and it's none the worse for wear. Best thing about it is that once I got home, I put the paper bag in the recycle box instead of the trash! 
If LCBO phases out the plastic, they may probably come out with a similar stronger paper bag to compensate. 

  7. Related to the previous point, those who formerly would have conveniently taken their purchases home in standard plastic bags on foot or on public transit will now be driving or taking cabs instead.  Consider the additional carbon emissions, fuel costs, and taxi fares associated with that.  We welcome help on quantifying this inevitability.

Yeah right. People are going to be so put out that they will shell out $20 for a cab? I don't think so! Not when using a reusable bag is so much easier and less expensive. People are more adaptable than apparently you think.

  8. Clutching paper bags to your chest filled with bottles and cans will result in significant physiological stress, however far the items are carried.  Far more stress than carrying the same items in standard plastic bags by their handles. Pain in the arms, upper body and even lower back will be noticeable to say the least. 

Those reusable bags are easier to carry than the plastic ones!

I can't believe you would start one these sites that aims to go backwards in the fight to save the environment. If a store doesn't want to provide free plastic bags anymore, why can't you just adapt? It's their prerogative.

Surely you are smart enough to know that people in our society are much to wasteful and that wastefulness is not sustainable. Changes such as using reusable and recyclable materials are a positive step forward.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Please see my comments below your numbered points:</p>
<p>1. In a National Post article, dated May 28, 2008, Canadian Plastics Industry Association (CPIA) president, Serge Lavoie, is quoted as saying, &#8220;Paper bags are a far worse user of natural resources and emit far more greenhouse gases at the end of their life cycle than plastic.&#8221; A 2004 study comparing paper with plastic bags found the manufacture of paper bags takes 2.2 times more non-renewable energy than plastic shopping bags, 4.7 times more water and emits 3.1 times more greenhouse gases.</p>
<p>This is a quote from the president of a plastics association. Of course he will be spinning his side to look good. I wouldn&#8217;t quote someone who&#8217;s obviously biased. How about finding a quote from an unbiased 3rd party to support your argument?<br />
Also, how about providing a link to that &#8220;2004 study&#8221; so that we can read it and see for ourselves how sound it is?</p>
<p>   3. The LCBO contends that 80 million of their standard plastic bags end up in landfills. Their numbers are based on the number of bags they provide to customers. But because the standard plastic bags are so sturdy and suitable for so many purposes, they are not ending up in landfills, because they are being reused for other purposes… storage, returning empty bottles to the Beer Store for refunds, carrying a wide variety of items from one location to another, etc. Hence the 80M figure is grossly exaggerating the landfill issue.</p>
<p>Look at it this way, people may be reusing their bags, but there is no plastic bag recycling system in Toronto. Therefore, no matter how many times you reuse your bag, unless you are hanging onto it forever, eventually it ends up in a landfill. Thus, if they are giving out 80 million bags, then eventually 80 million bags end up in a landfill, unless people hoard them in their houses forever. It really is that simple. The bags they give out can&#8217;t just disappear.</p>
<p>  5. The LCBO tried convincing their customers to buy reusable canvas bags before, under the assumption that their customers were concerned with environmental issues.  It was a colossal failure to say the least! Customers did not want to have to carry empty bags back to the store.</p>
<p>Many customers are bringing reusable bags back to the store. Have you been to the grocery store lately? I see many people bringing their reusable bags there. Probably this wasn&#8217;t a success in the past b/c people weren&#8217;t given a strong enough message that it&#8217;s important to save the environment through these small but easy changes in the past. Now that most stores are encouraging this option, more and more people are doing it.<br />
Myself, I always travel with a backpack when I know I will be shopping. Environmental concerns aside, I&#8217;d rather carry something on my back instead of clutching plastic bags in my hands!</p>
<p>  6.  Consider the scenario of buying four bottles of wine.  In the past the LCBO staff would have probably used two plastic bags which you can conveniently take home, whether you have driven, taken public transportation or even walked. Now, you&#8217;d get two paper bags which you&#8217;d have to hold clutched to your chest.  That might be OK if your car isn&#8217;t far away, but what about those people who are walking a few blocks or taking a bus or street car. The walkers will be experiencing a lot of physical strain, and those on public transit would likely be taking up another seat for the bags, since it would not be advisable to put them on the floor as you could with the durable standard plastic bags. </p>
<p>See my point above about the backpack. Also, paper bags do not have to be flimsy. Just yesterday I purchased a large bag of soil from a garden centre, and they gave me a large paper bag with a strong paper handle, and I carried that sucker for about a 10 min walk, and it&#8217;s none the worse for wear. Best thing about it is that once I got home, I put the paper bag in the recycle box instead of the trash!<br />
If LCBO phases out the plastic, they may probably come out with a similar stronger paper bag to compensate. </p>
<p>  7. Related to the previous point, those who formerly would have conveniently taken their purchases home in standard plastic bags on foot or on public transit will now be driving or taking cabs instead.  Consider the additional carbon emissions, fuel costs, and taxi fares associated with that.  We welcome help on quantifying this inevitability.</p>
<p>Yeah right. People are going to be so put out that they will shell out $20 for a cab? I don&#8217;t think so! Not when using a reusable bag is so much easier and less expensive. People are more adaptable than apparently you think.</p>
<p>  8. Clutching paper bags to your chest filled with bottles and cans will result in significant physiological stress, however far the items are carried.  Far more stress than carrying the same items in standard plastic bags by their handles. Pain in the arms, upper body and even lower back will be noticeable to say the least. </p>
<p>Those reusable bags are easier to carry than the plastic ones!</p>
<p>I can&#8217;t believe you would start one these sites that aims to go backwards in the fight to save the environment. If a store doesn&#8217;t want to provide free plastic bags anymore, why can&#8217;t you just adapt? It&#8217;s their prerogative.</p>
<p>Surely you are smart enough to know that people in our society are much to wasteful and that wastefulness is not sustainable. Changes such as using reusable and recyclable materials are a positive step forward.</p>
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